Curse

G E A R S · Jun 12, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

This Comparison is based on pve not pvp.

Searing Flames Build
Fire Attunement
Searing Flames
Glowing Gaze
Glyph of Sacrifice
Meteor Shower
(optional)
(optional)
(optional)

Note: This build may vary quite a bit from group to group.

Renewal Nuker

Fire Attunement
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Fireball
Rodgort's Invocation
Tenai's Heat
Glyph of Renewal
Meteor Shower
(optional)

Note: This build may vary quite a bit from group to group.

With searing flames you do 119 dmg (at 16 fire) every say 2.5 seconds and cause burning. Energy Management is an issue every 7-10 sf casts

With renewal you can cast meteor shower every 15-20 seconds and deal 119 dmg every 3 seconds and knockdown. In between casting time you can deal a great deal of damage. Rarely have energy management issues.

In my opinion renewal is much better for pve and should be used more than searing flames. The only problem with renewal nuker is that it is easily interrupted, its "hard" to get glyph of renewal and it might cause enemies to Flee.

Why don't they use renewal instead of sf for missions such as DoA?

Stormlord Alex · Jun 12, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Because Meteor Shower sucks.
You spend 5 seconds casting the bugger, and it's 3 seconds untill the 1st meteor hits. That's 8 seconds before any actual damage occurs (in normal PvE, a pack of SF eles could have nearly wiped out a mob by then). And you have to waste your elite/secondary to get any mileage out of it, if you use it as a main nuke.
Oh, and you're completely screwed if the enemy takes 2 steps to the right.

Searing Flames on the other hand... With Mark of rodgort on a target, a lone SF ele can hit the enemy for 119 damage + burning every three seconds CONSTANTLY, as opposed to 3 times every 3 seconds once every 20 seconds An SF ele gets to keep a (sac'd) MS when he needs the disruption from the KD.
Oh, and in larger packs, SF tears stuff apart much faster than Meteor Shower ever could. Also, SF is a much larger AoE - Nearby is far greater than adjacent. And unlike the MS dude, the SF ele isn't at all ruffled if the enemy takes 2 steps to the left.

Face it - Renewal nuking is long outdated, SF kills stuff more faster and efficiently than pretty much anything else. And in cookie-cutter groups, it just gets better and better the more nukers are added to the pack.

Captain Arne Is PRO · Jun 12, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

One Is An Apple And The Other An Orange

I Like Fruit

Marverick · Jun 13, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill] > Glyph of Renewal anyday.

Searing Flames is more of an AoE pressure, AP is a semi-AoE spike. I prefer AP but you can't really compare the two, AP gets screwed over if the target magically gets some sort of protection or healing which doesn't really happen in PvE, but still, meh.

Coloneh · Jun 13, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

SF is normally much better, but sometime the renewal nuke is useful.

phool · Jun 13, 2007, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Damage is secondary to 3 nicely spaced KDs over a period of 9 seconds. Renewal nuking definitely has a place. I would use AI.

G E A R S · Jun 13, 2007, 11:16 AM // 11:16

First off Assasin's promise would be great exept it has a 45 second recharge time.

Second when playing sf i could not get enough damage done to bosses in ring of fire (especially the monk boss) mainly because the boss could heal itself from conditions faster than i could recast searing flames. But with renewal i could kill the boss in like 10 seconds.

fujin · Jun 13, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

I'm going to have to say the Mark of Rodgort + Searing Flames combo makes the SF build more effective. Especially in a group, they can wipe out packed up mobs in seconds.

phool · Jun 13, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Meteor shower becomes worth it when the mobs can actually heal. shadow army monks for example, with woh and heal area. Meteor shower on a GoR is pretty much the most efficient way of simultaneously shutting down their healing and killing them, particularly if you're doing something like 3 man.

G E A R S, assassin's promise recharges itself. If you're the only elementalist in a party in a midgame area with little hex removal I'd say AP nuking is probably the most effective nuking option.

Searing flames suffers a lot in Tyria vs bosses as they have reduced condition duration.

XvArchonvX · Jun 13, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Renewal/Echo/Promise nuking is noteable for it's knockdown effect, which can assist a group in shutting down enemies.

SF nuking simply deals more damage and is more able to keep up with moving mobs. It can also still provide some KD to an extent by bringing MS in the same bar.

If you REALLY need knockdown for some reason, MS nuking is good, but SF is usually more effective. However, SF generally isn't the greatest of choices for an ele build if you only have 1 nuker in the group.

To answer the OP's question: SF is used in elite missions like DoA, Urgoz, Deep, etc. because you either have a BiP necro or something like Essence Bond on a tank to deal with energy problems. Once energy problems are taken care of, a SF ele can really unleash on enemies. The destructive power with multiple SF eles also increases dramatically since rarely do you ever cast SF just to cause burning, but rather get the damage bonus almost every time.

Free Wind · Jun 14, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by G E A R S

Why don't they use renewal instead of sf for missions such as DoA?

Try playing in DoA as Renewal Nuker and you'll understand why it's not used there... Your every meteor shower will get interupted, or even worse - Power Blocked.

Veil - Concussions shot, Savage Shot
Gloom - Daze, Migrain, Cry of Frustration
Foundry - Dream Riders (Power Spike, Power Block, Cry of Frustration) will make sure you'll never have a chance to cast anything that takes longer then 1-2 seconds

That's why Glyph of Sacrifice is a must for MS in DoA

What's more, MS causes agro break while SF doesn't. Try to kill Titans (who can't be knocked down) with meteor shower ... you'll be lucky if 1-2 MS hits actually hit them

pingu666 · Jun 14, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

a mix in the group is probably best tbh
MS is really clumsy and slow. alot of the time u miss/splat corpses

Hollerith · Jun 14, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by G E A R S

First off Assasin's promise would be great exept it has a 45 second recharge time.

Second when playing sf i could not get enough damage done to bosses in ring of fire (especially the monk boss) mainly because the boss could heal itself from conditions faster than i could recast searing flames. But with renewal i could kill the boss in like 10 seconds.

AP recharges itself.

To get back to your original question, SF builds are used in high-end pve areas because 3 SF eles synergize with eachother nicely. There's rarely a time when the mobs aren't burning, and if one is bringing Mark of Rodgort, then you're getting 3 eles hitting for 119 every two seconds. Start a fight with SacGlyphed MS and you're talking huge damage before a non-SacGlyphed MS could even be cast (at the risk of interruption).

Div · Jun 15, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Renewal nukers are only good in normal mode now. HM monsters are too smart to stand in that AoE, unless you want to couple it with a water ele...in which case I'd take 2 SF > nuker+water ele

phool · Jun 15, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

I would agree except deep freeze requires 0 attribute points so you can throw it on a fire ele, assuming your tank isn't able to take grasping earthward against foes (w/e, e/r) or caltrops (a/me). Though those may not necessarily be sufficient without muddy terrain.

xDusT II · Jun 15, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Many reasons why renewal meteor shower builds are outdated have been listed, I'll just add some more points.

Most searing Flames builds will also take Sac MS meaning they are just as effective, if not better at shutting down annoying casters such as monks. Also if you try running MS in DoA without glyph of sacrifice, you'll find yourself not finding many groups. There's a thing called camp casting in DoA which is where an ele spends too long casting spells within the aggro range of an enemy and hence causes a leak. Casting a meteor shower gives you a wonderful 5 seconds of camp cast time which means your probably going to cause aggro to break.

Also, Searing Flames just kills things faster. Who cares about strategy or tactics when you can just blow them to pieces?

Ensign · Jun 15, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Against mobs that require a Meteor Shower, the Searing Flames bar is better, putting down a Meteor Shower faster (in 2 seconds instead of 6.75), and supporting it with, well, Searing Flames.

Against mobs that don't require a Meteor Shower, you have Searing Flames.

The Renewal guy would be better against mobs that required several Meteor Showers to kill. However, those mobs *only* exist if you are running shitty Renewal/Meteor Shower guys instead of Searing Flames Eles.

Glyph of Renewal is an acceptable elite on a Fire Elementalist if you do not own Nightfall. If you own Nightfall and are using Glyph of Renewal in endgame content, it's because you're bad.

Peace,
-CxE

G E A R S · Jun 17, 2007, 12:02 AM // 00:02

im still not convinced but i was thinking maybe you could combine them such as 2 sf and 1 renewal/assasin's promise. just a thought.

GeniusLoci · Jun 20, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Mantra of Resolve. Played that when I had my nuker almost two years ago. Interrupts?

And if you need caster interrupt (given they don't run) - go for echoed Maelstrom, FoW was always a blaze with this one. I never understood why people didn't even bother to buy it. Yeah, it's water but you have to dump a point or two somewhere and this is enough to get most of it. The rest? Now Ele's have SF, with some timing and combining it with other spell you can get almost 100% spike from it even as single Ele in the group.

And sure I'm not familiar with Factions and NF areas, I just had long GW break, so don't flame me if I'm not right due to changes and so on.

EDIT
Well OK, tehre is something wrong with this mantra's numbers so - Glyph of Concentration seem better. I never used more than few points so I guess they have change it or I used something else

XvArchonvX · Jun 20, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeniusLoci

Mantra of Resolve. Played that when I had my nuker almost two years ago. Interrupts?

Back in the day before it was nerfed (and before Searing Flames) Mantra of Resolve was a good skill for a nuker's bar, but it really isn't useable on almost any bar nowadays since it's so energy heavy.